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Leach:
A special podcast today. Now you will remember maybe about 18 months ago, we caught up with Wayne Swan. We went up to Brisbane and spent time with him and spoke to him about what it would be like if there was a change of government, what we would need for workers, for unions in the event a new Labor guy was elected.
Well, that has all come to pass as we know, because just a couple of weeks ago, Anthony Albanese and Labor were elected and now sit on the government benches, So I thought we'd head back to Brizzie and catch up with a man that many of you know simply as Swanny, former deputy Prime Minister, Treasurer of Australia from December 2007 to June 2013. Along with Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard, he sort of guided Australia through the global financial crisis to the point where even the Australian newspaper at one stage referred to him as the world's greatest treasurer. He has that poster still up in his office. It sort of has a wonderfully black human irony about it, given what that newspaper is like these days anyway,
Got up to Brisbane. And I thought, okay, let's talk to Swanny about now that Anthony Albanese and labor had been elected, what are the challenges that a new Labor government faces to steer the economy through a crisis because we know that Wayne's done that in the past, and he's done it better than most. So I sat down with Wayne a couple of weeks ago in his Brisbane home, to talk about the challenges ahead to make sure that Labor delivers on its promises to workers into unions about secure work, better pay and a better future for us all.
Let's hear it. This is Wayne Swan on the job. Well, thanks Wayne welcome back to on the job, good to be here. Last time I was here within the office. It was a year out from the election. And we were talking about all the changes that needed to happen. I just want to get a sense of what your last year was like leading up to the election. And did you realize as we got close to the election, that there was going to be a change of government?
Swan:
There's no question that we learned an enormous amount from our loss three years ago. And through our campaign review, we changed completely our approach to campaigning. But I also think we changed our emphasis in terms of policy presentation, and putting forward a case for change, which was one that was more compelling for a broader section of the electorate. Some people describe the government's agenda as a small target strategy. It was no such thing. It was a spot on strategy. And some of the policies were very big targets, because they were very popular. So we managed to go through a campaign where we were on the right side of history, when it came to climate change and climate action, on the right side of history when it came to new measures to protect integrity, on the right side of history when it came to economic opportunity, and particularly the need to give ordinary workers a fair go in the wage system. I don't think it was a small target strategy as one which has a at its heart, an enormous climate transition in place for working people, that argues for decent and fair wages and working conditions for working people. And integrity in government. It was a pretty big policy agenda. But it was one that the Conservatives found very hard to get stuck into.
Leach:
So you're a political animal. I know you still love politics. How did you go during election day in election? I just come from a personal perspective, you're not a candidate anymore. You've got to sort of sit and watch on the sidelines. I know you're involved in the party still. But are you a nervous watcher on election night? How was it for you?
Swan:
Now I've been to through too many elections to be a nervous election watcher, I've actually lost a seat in Parliament in an election way back in 1996. And probably one of the most devastating nights was the night that Bill Shorten lost the election before before this one. In this last election I was confident we were going to do well. But I wasn't super confident that the majority would necessarily be there on the night. And in fact, halfway through the night I was talking to a number of my colleagues and saying, you know, just you know, we haven't won it yet. We haven't won it yet. And in fact, we only won it when the West Australian results came in. But what was apparent was the massive loss suffered by the Liberals. And I think Labor's majority, and the swing to labor was one that delivered a majority government with a decent majority of the vote. What gets lost in so much of this post election analysis about primary votes is that there was a majority vote for Labor in this election, which produced a majority of seats, which is what a fairer electoral system based on one vote one value and single member constituencies can deliver.
So the notion that somehow there is illegitimacy in the overall result for Labor is just nonsense. I’m constantly stunned by the number of so called qualified political journalists who fail to realize that there was a realignment in this election, a substantial realignment, and that realignment was on the conservative side of politics. And Labor not only won many of our traditional areas, well, we also won large slabs of the middle ground of Australian politics. There were also some areas of concern for labor in this result, and they're ones that we will consider very closely as we go through the review of the overall result over the next year or so. But there was a labor majority with a strong labor vote in large parts of the country, including in suburban Brisbane where we are now, which has been lost if you like, in some of the rewriting of history that we've seen.
Leach:
The first few weeks of government, you've been there must be really excited. We know that Labor doesn't get elected from opposition very often, you were part of one government, with Kevin Rudd in 2007, that did, just how head spinning is it when you first have to move across to the other side of Parliament House and get your head around being government. give us a sense of what it's like to try to adjust from being in opposition. And taking on the role that you did say as as Treasurer of the country?
Swan :
in our case, in late 2007, when we were elected, we hadn't been on the government benches since 1996. So it has been a relatively lengthy period out of power. And very few of us, if any, actually who went into Government in 2007 had previous ministerial experience. So that long period out meant that there were a whole lot of newbies coming into government, who had never been ministers, and had never been part of the apparatus of government. And that was incredibly exciting and exhilarating for us. So as I watched a whole bunch of, of newbies, if you like, being sworn in, I was incredibly excited for them and for their families, but most importantly for the country, because we got a great bunch of new ministers. But the thing about this government is that a significant portion of it has been in government before. So that makes the transition from opposition to government so much easier than it was for people like myself, when I became Treasurer back in 2007. And although I'd been in parliament on and off for a number of years prior to that, I'd never served as a government minister. We're so fortunate that this Labor Government has a Prime Minister, has a deputy prime minister, has a treasurer, has a foreign minister, and the list goes on, who have previously served in a government and served at the highest level of government. And by that, I mean, sitting on the key subcommittees of cabinet, whether it's the expenditure Review Committee, whether it's the intelligence committees, national security committees, we've got people who've been there and done that. And the consequence of that is that they are able to really put things in place somewhat more quickly than we would have been able to have done back in 2007.
Leach:
A weird attack from the Liberals was trying to paint Anthony Albanese, and I guess his colleagues by extension,as being inexperienced and never having held at economic portfolio, which was ridiculous given his role as infrastructure
Swan:
By definition if you're the leader of a party and become prime minister, how's the critique that you've never been Prime Minister before a critique? I mean, it's one of those absurdities that political journalism in Australia is let run as political analysis. And it's more a commentary on those who say it and write it and give it validity than it is on objectively what's actually happening out there.
Leach:
I want to talk to you about the future of labour. I mean, a future of work in Australia because I know you're deeply passionate about that as I am, but just your take on the way the election was covered. We've you mentioned it a few times and media in this election campaign. I mean, you've fronted media conferences in all sorts of circumstances, you know, year in year out and throughout elections. I was shocked by the way that it was Were you shocked?
Swan:
Absolutely as was Laura T ingle, the president of the parliamentary press gallery. I've never seen anything like it and I saw shades of it in Bill Shorten’s last campaign and some of the culprits in that campaign came back bigger and worse. In this campaign, the behaviour of some of the traveling press was incredibly unprofessional, reminiscent really of, of what's going on in the United States in organizations like Fox News. It was absolutely unprofessional, large sections of it were driven by the government's agenda, and it was designed to destabilize the opposition, and I hope lessons are learned from it. I fear not. But Labor won in the face of having a significant section of the press gallery campaigning against it alongside the government. You know, we've put up with the fact that you know, the Murdoch Empire has now become, essentially an integral part of conservative politics in this country along with Sky News. And we have to fight them all at once. But then to have journalists in open press conferences, just behave openly in a partisan way, tells us that there's a very fundamental problem in political journalism in this country.
Leach:
So we're heading into another Labor government and like you in 2007, do you have any sort of honeymoon because the global financial crisis crashed into you? And of course, you rose to the challenge there in a way that the country is still reaping the benefit from but this new government is facing a different but a challenge of a similar proportion in terms of the economic headwinds that it's facing. Because the problems are so monumental, I don't want you to comment on the specifics of it. But how do you start to even as a treasurer, to prioritize what needs to be done? What's the process, you've got to sort of think through to work out? How do I get stuff done, given there's so many competing demands?
Swan:
Well, the most fundamental objective has to be to secure quality growth, which delivers the wages and working conditions and the opportunity that drives spending in the economy to continue to to deliver over time quality growth. And the headwinds are substantial, we've got inflationary pressures domestically in the economy, we've got an international inflationary spiral on our hands, and global supply chain problems, which are dislocating businesses internationally and nationally, we've got a tremendous expansion of fiscal policy both domestically and internationally, which will be part and parcel of that story of inflationary pressures. And we've got an enormous build up of government debt, which itself has the potential to destabilize future growth, with the size of those problems comes the size of the challenge and the size of the potential opportunity. And I happen to think there's a very big opportunity for Australia. I take a very optimistic view about our economic future, drawn from our location in the world. And now also from the abundance of renewable energy we have in this country, and the role that it will play both domestically and internationally in securing economic recovery as we go forward. In an environment where we have to dramatically reduce fossil fuel emissions, Australia is incredibly lucky to have such an enormous potential supply of renewable energy, which we can use domestically to engage in cheaper production to reindustrialize. In some sections of our manufacturing industry, that becomes that transition, if you like from fossil fuels to renewable energy. It is in fact going to become a core of the economic agenda as we go forward, and secure future growth with quality jobs, well paid jobs, and decent profits for business.
Leach:
So that new green economy in a sense offers a chance for an economic reset when it comes to jobs and secure jobs and secure work. After 10 or more years of an environment where insecure work labor higher these really pernicious elements have sort of crept into our industrial relations system that have driven down wages and and entitlements for workers. And, you know, from our perspective, say, from the ACTU, for the Australian unions perspective, this is really important, because we see, working people being increasingly living in what I call the trapdoor economy, they're just one bad economic circumstance away from falling into real distress. Is that going to be hard to correct? Or is it going to have to be a fight that we're just going to have to have,
Swan:
First we have to secure strong growth to secure employment for all. And second, and I would argue this really passionately, the quality of the jobs that we deliver are just as important as the quantity of the jobs that we deliver. And the spending that comes from the quality jobs is very important in delivering future growth. So that's a cycle itself, it's a cycle. But what gives us the opportunity for that cycle to become virtuous is just as we secured with fossil fuels over the past 30, or 40 years, an enormous export industry and a return to the country from the export of those fuels, w e're going to be able to underpin growth in this century, with the same emphasis on renewable energy and the role it can play as an input into production domestically, and as an export for this country, securing valuable dollars and underpinning our future prosperity.
So I'm pretty optimistic about all of that. But I'm also optimistic about the future labour market, because the economic good that comes from giving someone a decent secure job with decent wages and working conditions, is going to be more readily apparent in this era than it was in what you would call the old neoliberal era of trickle down economics. Then the notion basically was that if you if he gave a tax cut to the top end of town, and that profits increased, that would drive jobs, quality jobs and income for workers. And what we've seen is the profit share go up in the wage share go down. As we go forward from here, if you like, we're in a period where the profit share is at a record high, the wage share is at a record low, we've got the opportunity to reduce that imbalance for a variety of reasons. And the principle one is that people like you and I are baby boomers and the baby boomers decided to exit the workforce so the supply of labour, both domestically and internationally, is going to be somewhat less than it has been in the last 20 or 30 years. So the bargaining power naturally of working people is going to increase as the supply of labour is decreasing, given the retirement of the baby boomers. The other structural factor that's occurring in the global economy is that over the last 20 or 30 years, this neo-liberal period where pressure on wages have been down profits going up, is that wages in the developing world have been going up, the comparative difference that has driven so much of the undermining of working conditions in the developed world by the lower pay levels and lower conditions in the developing world, that gap is closing. So those two things combined, I think, can well bring an era where the bargaining power of labour is somewhat stronger. And the need to more fairly share the product of the economy between profits on the one hand and labour on the other is going to become an economic imperative, which in itself will drive growth and bring a virtuous cycle of investment,
Leach:
Because I think the pandemic showed too many people that the jobs that people have been doing vital jobs, essential jobs, were casualized were people working in crucial roles and everyday roles. They didn't offer them a pay packet with entitlements, I think it's shifted, shifted
Swan:
In a pandemic gave lie to the notion that the most important and valuable workers at any company were the executives that sat on the top floor of the building. The CEOs and their executive teams. |The pandemic taught us that some of the most important and valuable workers in our country were some of the most low paid vulnerable workers in some of the most insecure jobs in some of the most insecure industries, which suddenly turned out to be some of our most important industries. So it's forced us to rethink of so much of that neo-liberal ideology that drove so much of public policy and private wealth.
Leach:
So as we head into the next couple of years, a lot to do economically, but also some important stuff beyond economics as well. And the Uluru statement from the heart is one of those things. And that's a journey that this Labour government is going to take us on, how important is it that that actually be realized for the maturity of the country and for the, for the well being of Australia, you know, for future generations?
Swan:
Well, I think the importance of that is now far broader than just the public debate of those that have been interested in these issues in recent years. ESG questions now go to the core, not just to what government does, but what any large private institution in this country does. The whole notion of equality of opportunity, not just in terms of income, but in terms of diversity, and gender, and so on, is now fairly and squarely on the agenda. And if you sit around the board of any company or, for that matter, a Superfund these days, they are always considering when they take their decisions, what are the implications, not just for our returns, but for the diversity of our workforce, on our consumers and so on. So I think there's a much more broadly based movement, which in itself is a repudiation of the whole neo-liberal era, which basically says that achieving progress on ESG issues is a driver of income, a driver of standing in the community, as a facilitator of increased profit.
Leach:
Superannuation was something that I know that Labor governments have protected over a long period of time and take great pride in like the union movement in establishing superannuation and, and decent retirement for working people. There was a continued attack on superannuation over the last few years, the government opened it up during the pandemic for people to draw down their super and steal from their from their retirement, there was an attempt to try to use superannuation in the last election campaign to be a basis on which you could buy a new home. How important is it that Superannuation is continued to be protected, and you know, someone who's been involved in the macro economic and important decisions in this country over the last 2030 years, just remind people what sort of dividend it has provided working people over that period of time and how it's changed people's lives that they've had access to their superannuation?
Swan:
Well, it's been enormous and I have to declare my interest here. I'm the chair of Cbus. So Cbus represents some of the lowest paid workers in some of the most insecure categories of work. So you're in Cbus, you're more likely to be on a lower income than a higher income, your work is more likely to be insecure rather than secure. So the advent of super which was driven by Cbus originally and great unionists, like Tom McDonald, who sadly passed away some months ago, was to deliver for some of our lowest paid most insecure workers the prospect of security and dignity in retirement. And the pillars of that system in recent years have been under severe attack by the coalition, whether it's their delay to the increase in SG which would deliver the adequacy that people require retirement, or whether it was the attack on preservation, which during this election campaign emerged, when they decided they were going to let people withdraw money, say to buy a first home, which would in fact, dramatically decrease the funds available to them in retirement. Those attacks from the conservatives on the pillars of the system, need to be exposed in terms of their destructive capacity for what has become probably Australia's most significant economic asset. Our pool of superannuation savings is bigger than our economy. It is strongly linked to our economic success in the last 20 years, super funds recapitalized businesses during the global financial crisis. They did so again, during the whole COVID episode. Superannuation is a nation building pool of funds that will secure the wealth of this country well ahead of just about any other advanced democracy in the Western world. And to think that the Conservatives could be so reckless and foolhardy as to try to dismantle preservation because that's what delivers the quality and the level of income required in retirement. I think over this next three or four years, I think the change of government gives the superannuation industry breathing space free of the attacks from conservatives to work harder at arguing the case for superannuation overall, and finding new institutional settings to ensure that it can't be fiddled with in the future.
Leach:
Why did they hate it so much? Is it because workers capital actually gives workers a say, in the way the economy runs, and we were not staying in our lane.
Swan:
They hate it basically, because they disliked the twin foundations in which it is built, which is a proportion of workers wages go to savings, and that is incentivized by tax cuts. And when it comes to conservatives, they're always trying to reduce wages, and they're always trying to reduce tax. So attacking Superannuation is actually eating their DNA because they want lower wages and less tax. This neo-liberal idea is that lower wages and less tax produces growth. Of course it doesn't. In fact, it does the reverse. So the very foundations of the system go to the core of their Trumpian ideology these days. And the most pleasing aspect, I think of the Australian election, when seen in its international context, is that this election was a decisive defeat for the Trumpification of the Liberal Party of Australia that we've seen progressively from Tony Abbott's Prime Ministership, right through to Scott Morrison's Prime Ministership. There's a brief sort of interlude in that where Turnbull pretended he wasn't Trumpian, but still had Trumpian type policies in some areas. It was a complete rejection, if you like of Trumpian ideology. And the pleasing thing I think, from Labor's perspective is that we did win the economic debate, and they were not successful in waging a culture war, to obscure the essence of the economic debate and economic program that we were putting forward. Because the challenge for social democratic parties not just in Australia but around the world, is to win the economic debate, to win the battle of economic ideas, and defeat the culture wars that the Conservatives constantly drag across the debate to camouflage the inequality which is built in to the economic program they run.
Leach:
Just to finish, you've known Anthony Albanese a long time and had to it's been a long road to the Prime Ministership for him, but you get the sense that this is an opportunity for him to blossom it it's going to we're going to see him at his finest here. What do you think he brings to the job? That's right for this moment? Well, he
Swan:
He brings to the job, a variety of qualities, and one is that he is an Australian who grew up in modest circumstances, and has done well throughout his lifetime, but doesn't forget where he came from. And that's pretty important because this is a country which has been built on the hard work of millions of people who aspire to nothing more than a decent wage, a decent education, a decent health care system, and don't need to ask for more or expect that their circumstances should be attacked by those who are seeking to enrich just a few. So he comes from that classic labor background, basic labor aspiration, that if you work hard, and society provides opportunities, you've got a responsibility to give back to your society. Secondly, experience and knowledge, knowledge of the parliament, knowledge of the major actors in the society and in the economy, he’s much more qualified than anyone who would sit on the Liberal Party front bench, almost at any time in the last decade or so. He knows Australian society, he knows the major actors, and he knows where he's come from. That's a pretty good combination.
Leach:
Just to finish, we're in your library here in your home. And I know you're an avid reader, give us a sense of what you've been reading lately.
Swan:
I've also also got a few photographs.
Leach:
So we go around the room, there's a photo up here of the great man Gough.
Swan:
There is Yep. And I just wanted to remind you that this year will be the 50th anniversary of Go0ugh Whitlam’s election in 1972. To all of us baby boomers of that generation, the great man changed our country and put in place a set of political and economic objectives which still resonate today. And then over there, you've got a picture of Julia Gillard and myself, giving a press conference, which I think is a reminder of how Labor governments even in difficult political conditions, can actually put in place big reforms that change a country forever. It's a bit of a reminder that political life is an honourable life. Both Gough and Julia show an honourable political life can change a country
Leach:
And over here is a young Kim Beazley? I spy in the corner?
Swan:
That is Yeah,and a younger Wayne Swan who was first elected in 1993. And the great man Mr Beasley. I'm going to catch up with him in the next week or so. So one of the great things about the labour movement is that we have so many of these great characters who are still around and active. I often think that we don't do enough with those. And there's plenty in the union movement. I was reminded of this the other day at the Tom McDonald funeral, whether its Bill Kelty or Dave Noonan, or we've got so many people who have spent so many years in public life, and we dio need to find richer ways of actually getting them out there and talking to the next generations about why the labour movement and the Labor Party are such important institutions, not just in the political system, but in our society. Because what the conservatives have succeeded in doing in recent years, it's completely demonizing public life. Their whole purpose is to demonize public life. So taxes are lower, wages are lower, and the few benefit from the bounty of the country. There’s such a rich story to be told by these people of all of the debates and policy, challenges and political conflicts so we can be a prosperous social democratic country, where everybody gets a fair go. In doing that we enrich the whole country, not just a few.
Leach:
And just to finish, we do have the famous newspaper banner from the Australian World's Greatest Treasure above your desk, who would have thought that the Australian would celebrate a labou treasurer. That seems like a million years ago,
Swan:
There was a brief and fleeting moment of madness at the Australian and whoever did it was probably shot at dawn. And I said to Jim Chalmers the other day that I'm sure he'll receive the same!
Leach:
I don't think you should hold his breath, great to catch up with you again and I really appreciate you having me in your home for the conversation. Okay, glad to be with you. This is on the job with Francis Leach and Sally Rubb.
Leach:
There he is the great the one and only Swanny Wayne Swan, former treasurer of Australia deputy prime minister and still National President of the Labor Party in his element at home in Brisbane, in his study, give me a bit of a tour of his memory lane on the walls here which is great fun. Thank you to Wayne and his family for inviting you into their home for that conversation. Always love catching up with a great man. i That's it for this week's edition. Hey, if you can give us a rating we'd love it. It certainly helps other people find the information and inspiration so on whatever platform you're on. Just give us a rating and help us bump up the charts and just tell your friends about the podcast. You can always email us as well at OTJ podcast@protonmail.com OTJ podcast@protonmail.com. And that's it for another edition of on the job. We'll catch you next time.
